Curse

Sweet Victory · Mar 23, 2008, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Ok, well as I was going through all of my warrior elites that I have capped, and then trying to work a build around them. I have not really been able to think of a situation where I would want to take cleave. Even if it is not a good axe elite compared to say triple chop or eviscerate, I feel that there should be at least a couple builds with it playing a key role.

But frankly, it seems that since Cleave has such low adrenaline cost, all of my other skills get neglected (Executioner's, Whirlwind, and so on). So what would be a fairly good build using this elite, and yes I have checked out PVX, and the conjure seems like it would add a nice touch.

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My next question is in regard to a shield. I just started playing again around 3 weeks ago, and before that tactics still had some good skills like watch yourself, before save yourselves and all the subsequent nerfs to the tactics line. So my serrated shield was pretty good as a -2 in a stance was great with flail. But sadly it is in the tactics line. My other shield is in the str line, but it is a -5 20%.

So what would be a good set of mods for a shield, would it be elemental defence, or possibly just a -2 in a stance, but in the str line.

Well thanks for reading, your advice is very much appreciated.

Crom The Pale · Mar 23, 2008, 05:49 PM // 17:49

For shields definately go with +10 armor mods, they are the absolute best for most any PvE area.

As for Cleave, its basically = to an adren version of power attack, except its elite.

Its not hard to fit it into a build, but the build will be less efficient than other builds.

[skill]"For Great Justice!"[/skill][skill]Flail[/skill][skill]cleave[/skill][skill]Dismember[/skill][skill]Agonizing Chop[/skill][skill]Disrupting Chop[/skill][skill]Conjure Lightning[/skill][skill]Shock[/skill]

this build can deal out ok dmg and really disrupt a caster, assuming your not blocked or blinded.

miskav · Mar 23, 2008, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Cleave is nice in a pressure like build, not so much if the war is expected to spike.

Bobby2 · Mar 23, 2008, 06:47 PM // 18:47

lolwut? I LOVE Cleave, in PvE. I run 14 Axe, 13 Strength.

Cyclone, Whirlwind Attack a moderate AoE spike. Cyclone is great for building initial adren.
Dismember, Cleave so it's not as pretty as Evis-Exe but it's usable far more often and the spike is more than enough for PvE.
Flail best IAS for PvE, I'm sure of it
Save Yourselves! because I'm actually a pretty nice guy
Sunspear Rez Sig 'people are retarded' (attr. Savio?)
Holy Veil is currently in because I'm tired of Soothing Images screwing me over.

Have fun

Trvth Jvstice · Mar 24, 2008, 01:20 AM // 01:20

Teeny bit off topic: Crom mentioned [skill=text]Agonizing Chop[/skill], I've been seeing this attack used more and more (observing GVG battles) as a follow up for Eviscerate instead of Executioner's Strike. I don't see this skill discussed much in the Warrior forum. Sure, it does considerably less dmg than Executioner's, but often the added disrupt would make the decrease in dmg worthwhile. Cleave, Dismember, Agonizing Chop looks like a great combo.

Sir Pandra Pierva · Mar 24, 2008, 04:10 AM // 04:10

i tend to use something like that cept with an evis spike

blue.rellik · Mar 24, 2008, 04:14 AM // 04:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trvth Jvstice

Teeny bit off topic: Crom mentioned [skill=text]Agonizing Chop[/skill], I've been seeing this attack used more and more (observing GVG battles) as a follow up for Eviscerate instead of Executioner's Strike. I don't see this skill discussed much in the Warrior forum. Sure, it does considerably less dmg than Executioner's, but often the added disrupt would make the decrease in dmg worthwhile. Cleave, Dismember, Agonizing Chop looks like a great combo.

Agonizing Chop is dead, it's whole purpose was to be a source of quick damage to finish off the Evis -> Execute (now it's Body Blow) combo. Because of the slower activation time, it has been dropped for Disrupting Chop

Zil · Mar 24, 2008, 08:13 AM // 08:13

Also, often you are spiking after a Bull's Strike or Shock, so there isn't much to disrupt if you're target is knocked down, which is why people don't replace Executioner's/Body Blow with Agonizing Chop.

Chthon · Mar 24, 2008, 05:45 PM // 17:45

1. Cleave isn't bad, but it's lackluster compared to other options, even in the axe line.

2. PvP or PvE?

In PvP, get the full collection of "+10AL vs X" shields.

In PvE, -2/stance is probably the best choice (assuming you are maintaining your stance all the time).
Shield mods is one area where people like to mindlessly port what works in PvP over to PvE when it really doesn't work well at all. Three reasons a "+10AL vs X" shield collection is bad in PvE:
a. It takes six inventory spaces to carry the one's your not using.
b. Stopping before each mob to change shields is tedious, your party may lose adrenaline/refrains/minions/etc while waiting, and it's going to annoy the heck out of people.
c. PvE has more than its share of mixed mobs that don't have a predominant damage type.
Look at margonites for example: The warriors do blunt damage; the dervs do slashing and cold damage; the rangers do piercing damage and bleeding; the monks do holy damage; the necros do dark damage and degen; the mesmers do chaos damage; the eles do lightning and cold damage (and I don't know what their wands do); and the paragons do piercing damage. What "+10AL vs X" mod to you pick? No matter what you choose, most of the damage is going to go right by it. Maybe 10AL vs Piercing since that at least effects two of the margonites' auto attacks? Compare against -2/stance which is going to apply to four of the margonites' attacks.
The only "+10AL vs X" mod I'd maybe consider good for PvE for a warrior would be 10AL vs Slashing, since slashing is the most common damage type out there.

Crom The Pale · Mar 24, 2008, 11:41 PM // 23:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

1. Cleave isn't bad, but it's lackluster compared to other options, even in the axe line.

2. PvP or PvE?

In PvP, get the full collection of "+10AL vs X" shields.

In PvE, -2/stance is probably the best choice (assuming you are maintaining your stance all the time).
Shield mods is one area where people like to mindlessly port what works in PvP over to PvE when it really doesn't work well at all. Three reasons a "+10AL vs X" shield collection is bad in PvE:
a. It takes six inventory spaces to carry the one's your not using.
b. Stopping before each mob to change shields is tedious, your party may lose adrenaline/refrains/minions/etc while waiting, and it's going to annoy the heck out of people.
c. PvE has more than its share of mixed mobs that don't have a predominant damage type.
Look at margonites for example: The warriors do blunt damage; the dervs do slashing and cold damage; the rangers do piercing damage and bleeding; the monks do holy damage; the necros do dark damage and degen; the mesmers do chaos damage; the eles do lightning and cold damage (and I don't know what their wands do); and the paragons do piercing damage. What "+10AL vs X" mod to you pick? No matter what you choose, most of the damage is going to go right by it. Maybe 10AL vs Piercing since that at least effects two of the margonites' auto attacks? Compare against -2/stance which is going to apply to four of the margonites' attacks.
The only "+10AL vs X" mod I'd maybe consider good for PvE for a warrior would be 10AL vs Slashing, since slashing is the most common damage type out there.

You really do not swap the shield at every possible change of targets.....

You also don't worry about physical dmg on your war, it will most always be a caster that hits you for big dmg in PvE. Wars already have excellent protection vs physical and most of that damage will be armor ignoring anyway. The only exception to that might be peircing when your facing mobs of 3+ rangers.

The best rule of thumb is to look first at the boss(es) your going to face and secondly at the casters. Ive most always require only 2 shield for any map/mission/quest/dungeon.

Chthon · Mar 25, 2008, 02:46 AM // 02:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

You really do not swap the shield at every possible change of targets.....

Then why bother?

Quote:

You also don't worry about physical dmg on your war, it will most always be a caster that hits you for big dmg in PvE.

Your lifebar does not care one bit whether the missing 400hp came off in one 400hp chunk, two 200hp chunks, four 100hp chunks, eight 50hp chunks, or sixteen 25hp chunks; It only cares that it is now missing 400hp. Stopping 2 damage off five small hits makes your lifebar just as happy as stopping 10 damage off one big hit. Unless you're worried about your warrior getting spiked out, there's no reason at all to care more about the big hits. You should be worrying about preventing the most damage overall.

Savio · Mar 25, 2008, 03:15 AM // 03:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Your lifebar does not care one bit whether the missing 400hp came off in one 400hp chunk, two 200hp chunks, four 100hp chunks, eight 50hp chunks, or sixteen 25hp chunks;

Your lifebar does care when you start taking 400hp chunks of damage and those chunks of damage bring your health to 0.

As far as -damage vs +armor goes, +armor reduces more than -damage. Unless you're taking massive amounts of hits from multiple damage types, just having a single +armor vs type will reduce more than -damage.

Chthon · Mar 25, 2008, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

Your lifebar does care when you start taking 400hp chunks of damage and those chunks of damage bring your health to 0.

Did you read the part where I said "unless you're worried about your warrior getting spiked out"? Now, since it didn't sink in the first time: Unless you're worried about getting spiked out, it does not matter one tiny bit how many pieces your missing health came off in. Damage is fungible. Damage-mitigation is fungible. 20 damage taken or prevented on hit A is the same damn thing as 10 damage taken or prevented on hits B and C is the same as 5 damage taken or prevented on hits D, E, F, and G.

Quote:

As far as -damage vs +armor goes, +armor reduces more than -damage. Unless you're taking massive amounts of hits from multiple damage types, just having a single +armor vs type will reduce more than -damage.

Only if you've got a monotype or nearly-monotype mob. As soon as you run into a mixed mob (see the margonites from my last post), that stops being true. Yes, your +10 vs Whatever is going to stop a larger bit of damage off one foe's attacks, but -2stance/ench is going to stop a smaller bit of damage off more attacks, totaling more damage mitigated overall.

Let me try to illustrate my point:
Assume you had the good sense to use a +5AL weapon mod, so you've got 121 vs phys and 101 vs non-phys before the shield mod. Let's hit you with a few monsters:

Level 30 hammer warrior with 20 mastery autoattack:
Baseline = (5 * Mastery) - (3 * GreaterOf(0, (Mastery - (2 + RoundDown(Level/2))) = (5 * 20) - (3 * GreaterOf(0, (20 - (2 + RoundDown(30/2))) = 91.
Ave_Damage = Weapon_Ave * 2^((Baseline - Armor)/40) = 27 * 2^((91 - 121)/40)~= 16.
A -2stance mod would pull that down to 14.
Adding 10 armor vs blunt also pulls it down to 14.
So they break even if every physical attacker is one of these hammer guys, and -2stanc eis better if they don't.
Level 30 ele wanding you for fire damage:
Baseline = Level * 3 = 30 * 3 = 90.
Ave_Damage = Weapon_Ave * 2^((Baseline - Armor)/40) = 16.5 * 2^((90 - 101)/40) = 14.
A -2stance mod has no effect.
A 10 armor vs fire mod pulls it down to 11, or a difference of 3.
So they break even if you are taking 1.5 physical hits for every fire damage wand shot. More phys and the -2stance wins; more wand shots and the 10 AL vs fire wins.
Level 30 ele with 20 fire magic hitting you with fireball:
Fireball does 147 base damage at rank 20.
Final_Damage = Base_Damage * 2^((Baseline - Armor)/40) = 147 * (2^((90 - 101) / 40)) ~= 121.
A -2stance mod has no effect.
A 10 AL vs fire mod brings it down to 102, or a difference of 19.
The break-even point is 9.5 physical hits per fireball.

Let's take a closer look at that last case. What kind of mob composition do we need to get 9.5 physical hits per fireball? Fireball cycles in 9sec. A sword guy should be almost landing his 7th blow at the end of 9 sec. (For the sake of simplicity, assume they get identical speed boosts in HM so I don't have to calculate them.) So a break-even mob would have 1.4 sword-speed physicals per fireball guy. Maybe it's time to go take a monster census, but my general impression is that most mixed mobs have at least a 1.4::1 physical::damage caster ratio.

kazjun · Mar 26, 2008, 02:23 AM // 02:23

I don't reckon 400x1 = 200x2. Not in guildwars anyway. Definately not for a warrior. If you don't get spiked, and you're not going solo, there is no reason a warrior should ever die from little piddly hits, unless your monks are totally useless. Even mhenlo won't let you die.

Wanding and auto attacks aren't even worth counting if you're in a party. Well, it does to your squishies, but we're talking about a shield for a warrior right? And elemental damage gets pwned by high armour. A warrior takes about a third of any listed elemental damage. A 150 damage fireball would do at most 50, and a +10 shield is much more useful for cutting that down even more. Especially since a -2 would have no effect.

A -2 mod may be helpful in reducing a +damage strike from physical attacks, but it's not that handy considering you already have +20 armour vs physical on all warrior armour. Unless you're getting hit by constant +38s from a dragon slasher I'd question the usefulness of a -2. A +10 vs slashing would be more useful I reckon if you wanted more general physical damage. As is, try hitting a high armour target without +damage skills, you hit for like 10 damage. No warrior should die from that unless there's like 60 guys hitting you at once.

Unless it's extreme dps pressure, a warrior shouldn't care how much damage something cuts down over an hour. He should care how much damage gets cut down per second. Avoid that initial spike as he runs into a mob, and it's unlikely you'll get killed. Any healing will easily keep you alive.

Course if you're going solo, or without party healing, than that changes things. A -2 may be the differenance between taking 0 damage and 2 damage. And solo, that matters in a large mob.

Tyla · Mar 26, 2008, 03:06 AM // 03:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

2. PvP or PvE?

In PvP, get the full collection of "+10AL vs X" shields.

In PvE, -2/stance is probably the best choice (assuming you are maintaining your stance all the time).

-2/Stance is bad.
It only works against physical damage.
Whereas 10 vs X is 1/8 damage reduction.
Should cost around 50k'ish for mods, and for shields? They love dropping for me...
Or maybe -20% Blind = win? ;o

The Physical Only damage reduction mods are just bad, though.
Even in PvE -- you get more reduction off +10 vs X mods, and they work against caster aswell.

blue.rellik · Mar 26, 2008, 03:15 AM // 03:15

I personally prefer a +30/blind shield.

kazjun · Mar 26, 2008, 03:24 AM // 03:24

^True.

Blind is not your friend. And most people who see you coming will bflash/surge/throw dust etc. They even do it in pve now

Chthon · Mar 26, 2008, 03:55 AM // 03:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

I don't reckon 400x1 = 200x2. Not in guildwars anyway. Definately not for a warrior. If you don't get spiked, and you're not going solo, there is no reason a warrior should ever die from little piddly hits, unless your monks are totally useless. Even mhenlo won't let you die.

The only reason a warrior ever dies in PvE is pressure. The monks run dry (and usually die) and then the little hits pile up and kill you. If you're getting spiked down as a warrior, you've got much worse problems than choosing the best shield inscription. Since you're not going to get spiked out, damage and damage prevention are fungible to you. As long as you're going to be around for 5 hits, preventing 1 damage for 5 hits is just as good as preventing 5 damage off 1 hit and 0 damage off the next 4.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

Whereas 10 vs X is 1/8 damage reduction.

How do you figure?
10AL is ~16% damage reduction versus the selected type, and 0 damage reduction versus the other 10 armor-sensitive damage types. Depending on the mob, all of the damage may be in your chosen type, or only a small fraction. (See the margonite example for a mob where no more than 2 monsters share any damage type.)
-2Stance prevents less damage per hit, but it applies to 3 of the 11 armor-sensitive damage types instead of just 1, including the most common one.

Recap:
10 vs X for mono mobs.
-2 stance for mixed mobs.
-2 stance (or maybe 10 vs Slashing) for everything if you're too cheap to get multiple shields for PvE.

kazjun · Mar 26, 2008, 04:24 AM // 04:24

I've never died from pressure as a warrior in pve. If your monks have run dry then they need to carry some e-management. Or learn to kite. Or you could take more damage. There's very few things in pve you can't kill before a good monk finds himself in trouble with energy.

And if you get caught without pre-protting, getting an incubus spawn in HM hurts. After the initial spike and you kill a few the rest fall without trouble. Spike, where the monk doesn't have time to heal. Not pressure where even dumkoro can keep you up.

Oh, and for a warrior, carrying a -2 shield to prot against the odd stray hit rather than heavy spike damage doesn't make sense to me. If you're a monk, maybe. But have you EVER been taken down (as a warrior) by the melee's in a pve mixed mob? Is it those hammer warriors hurting you? Or the splinter weap they have? And unless you're tanking, how often do you get targetted after the initial rush? They'll run right past you. Unlike the casters who'll be happy to bsurge x10. The -2 mods were good when universal, but I wouldn't use them now unless I was specifically hunting physicals.

Tyla · Mar 26, 2008, 04:27 AM // 04:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

How do you figure?
10AL is ~16% damage reduction versus the selected type, and 0 damage reduction versus the other 10 armor-sensitive damage types. Depending on the mob, all of the damage may be in your chosen type, or only a small fraction. (See the margonite example for a mob where no more than 2 monsters share any damage type.)
-2Stance prevents less damage per hit, but it applies to 3 of the 11 armor-sensitive damage types instead of just 1, including the most common one.

Recap:
10 vs X for mono mobs.
-2 stance for mixed mobs.
-2 stance (or maybe 10 vs Slashing) for everything if you're too cheap to get multiple shields for PvE.

Got it wrong on the math with the 10AL. But it's still superior as it defends against ALL damage of that type, unlike -2stance, which only works against physical.

The damage reduction is more or less half of TNTF, but it's more conditional.